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JSCLMEDAVE Posted - 03/01/2012 : 09:50:49 AM
Interesting read. I have always thought that Microsoft's licensing was something that even their lawyers could not explain to a mere mortal.

4 ways Microsoft is screwing the desktop virtualization industry, and why I'm quitting the MVP program

~ Brian Madden
23   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
wobble_wobble Posted - 03/12/2012 : 6:11:24 PM
Originally posted by Rastor728

Originally posted by Jazzy

Would be a great addition to the Office 365 suite.

What happens to Office 365 on Leap Years?

It asks Google Apps to merge?
Jazzy Posted - 03/12/2012 : 5:50:20 PM
Downtime probably. :)
Rastor728 Posted - 03/12/2012 : 5:15:32 PM
Originally posted by Jazzy

Would be a great addition to the Office 365 suite.

What happens to Office 365 on Leap Years?
Jazzy Posted - 03/12/2012 : 04:05:04 AM
I know, Joe. Me too, there gotta be something Windows 8 related. Wouldn't even be surprised if they're preparing a hosted desktop service them selves. Would be a great addition to the Office 365 suite.
wobble_wobble Posted - 03/11/2012 : 6:06:32 PM

They say this when ever you ask. So its just a re-write of their SPUR.

I expect a better solution after we see Windows 8 RTM
Jazzy Posted - 03/11/2012 : 3:13:18 PM
And here we are, Microsoft breaks the silence:
JamesNT Posted - 03/07/2012 : 11:47:27 AM
It could be that we are waiting for MS to collect enough. . . dammit what's that word - the one MS uses when they collect data.......


We could be waiting for MS to collect enough of that to see how to license this stuff.

joe_elway Posted - 03/07/2012 : 10:58:25 AM
Originally posted by JamesNT

The question I have is this:

Is the licensing issue with VDI simply because people are going in a direction with it that MS didn't anticipate?


In volume licensing, they've actually had something in place for quite some time. The virtualisation rights of Windows (insert desktop version here) Enterprise edition covers VDI. So if you're PC is licensed for Enterprise, then that device has a VDI license.

For terminals, you buy VDA on a per device/month basis. But there's more fun and games with that and the consumerisation model.

For SPLA (hosting licensing) ... they just don't have it. Why? Don't know. Why not: don't know.
Rastor728 Posted - 03/07/2012 : 10:44:52 AM
We have seen in the past where MS Licensing is behind the rest of their business model as new products start to roll out. It is as if Microsoft rushes to get the products out and in our hands, then decides how to configure licensing as an after thought.

Sometimes making good decisions (Such as 2008 R2 Datacenter and HyperV), other times making it too hard to figure out (VDI, various Office configurations etc).
JamesNT Posted - 03/07/2012 : 09:04:38 AM
I find myself beginning to agree with you. Another good example is the HUGE jump from Small Business Server to native media.

When you're on SBS, licensing is easy and simple and cheap. But once you go to native media, all hell breaks loose. That copy of SBS on two servers that cost you around $5000 (including the servers) is now going to cost you close to $20,000 by the time you get all the independant parts (i.e. SQL, Exchange) and get all the CALS you need.

anthony Posted - 03/07/2012 : 08:51:54 AM
In my opinion it was a well thought out plan to get as much revenue as possible. However, in my opinion rather than push folks in the direction of Windows - they are forcing them to look elsewhere for solutions. You can bet your bippy if we had another option - we would be all over it. Not to start a firestorm here - but these are the very reasons some folks (mainly small and micro businesses) seek out the cloud.

In the enterprise, the OS is still very much a factor. But in the SMB space the OS is less relavent than ever. I saw this daily when I had my business. Roughly 50% of my customers had employees BYOD, and just pointed them to cloud apps. You leave? You get fired? Just logon to the website and change the password. Done. New employee starts? Create a new account, and point them to a website. No images. No licensing. In fact we recently upgraded to Exchange 2010. The ONLY thing keeping us from going with Google was all those integration parts in Outlook I talked about earlier. If we just needed email - we would have RUN - not walked to Google.

If M$ keeps this up, the irrelavance of the OS (and the apps they make) will eventually trickle up and eat away at larger and larger customers. The bottom line is this:

Bottom Line:
JamesNT Posted - 03/07/2012 : 08:24:39 AM
The question I have is this:

Is the licensing issue with VDI simply because people are going in a direction with it that MS didn't anticipate?

anthony Posted - 03/07/2012 : 08:21:22 AM
Our reasons were that much of the end user "integration" of our desktop applications happens - on the desktop. Not on the backend. None of the vendors support (very well) a Terminal Server (or App Streaming) environment - our testing on 2008 machines went dismally - and App Streaming was quirky as well. We are currently dealing with those issues on our Terminal Server with little help from the vendor. We get answers from support like, "Have you tried rebooting?" OK. I will kick 20 people off a system mid-day without any hesitation. Only to have the issue re-appear tomorrow.

I'll go ahead and say it. The software we use is highly specialized, industry specific, and IT SUCKS. There are a lot of little pieces that are office plug-ins and "app-enablers" on every desktop. Before a desktop build is over, there are 5 or 6 Office Add-Ins - all wanting to crash at any time. When they crash, it cascades across the whole TS environment. If you build a desktop system from scratch, there are about 30 installs that must be run, and it takes hours and hours to build a good solid image.

We don't have many other options that are cost effective. So VDI was the direction we went. So far it's working great, and the Citrix option was the only one that made $ense.

Long term, we are trying to really draw down the complexity of the desktops in hopes we can circle back around to a simpler world where Citrix/Terminal Services makes sense. But right now we can't...
Playwell Posted - 03/07/2012 : 07:33:37 AM
Am with Aiden.

VDI seems to be boosted by storage vendors for the obvious reason..
joe_elway Posted - 03/07/2012 : 06:14:11 AM
I spend a lot of time asking people why they are doing VDI. The most common answer I get is "because everyone else is". More often than not, RDS (Terminal Services)/XenApp would more more appropriate. If gives them the centralisation and control, without the cost and complexity of VDI. I stil have a quiet chuckle when I read/hear that people do VDI to simplify management (it requires the same old systems as before + more) and costs (how does moving a cheap PC from the desk to a share of expensive hw/storage/electricity in the datacenter with double/triple the license costs accomplish that?).

As for the licensing stuff Brian brought up, I couldn't find fault with them. I was very puzzled when I heard on a podcast that OnLive were offering free hosted VDI ... Joe would have access to a current SPLA pricelist (we distis are not allowed to sell SPLA) but I don't remember VDA being on there, and even if it was it wouldn't cost $0.00.

As for him quitting the program in protest ... he may have gotten some attention in Redmond during MVP Summit week but I don't think quitting will accomplish what he wants.
anthony Posted - 03/06/2012 : 10:55:20 PM
As somebody doing a VDI pilot as we speak. I was/am very frustrated with M$ and the VDI licensing options. From a cost standpoint Kaviza/VDI-in-a-Box is the only thing that made financial sense. Everything else is wickedly complicated and costly (Hyper-V/VDI and VMWare).
JamesNT Posted - 03/05/2012 : 12:30:42 PM

Since I am not a reseller, you are correct in that it wasn't sold by me. Also, when I set up a new shop I do try to get licensing right the first time. Fortunately, most of my setups are SBS setups so that is easy enough. Most of the incorrect licensing I've seen is by people who don't care, don't have time to care, or by dodgy IT types (mostly dodgy IT types).

Regarding SQL Server, I would say you need 15 CALS. However, that is me answering this question on the fly on forum. In real life, I would be on the phone with the MS rep at Dell trying to figure it all out. Or, if I saw the big potential for growth in this company, I would discard CALS's and go per processor.


We IT types get emotional about business because we could care less about Kim Kardashian. Furthermore, the mistakes made by management are the messes we have to clean up, so it's good to vent once in a while.

That being said, let me make a few things clear:

1. I have thoroughly disagreed with many on this forum in the years I have been here, even with Mark Minasi himself. Regardless of how heated that disagreement may be, that in no way dimishes the respect I have for each of you.

2. I have accepted for quite some time that I am simply not in the top 10 list of the smartest people here and probably never will be. That's fine as I am not in a race with anyone. I'm here to get help, offer it when I can, and make friends. Nothing more, but certain nothing less, either.


4. As Curt points out every time I'm on the phone with him (and Minasi has a few times, as well), it's my own fault I'm not an MVP yet.

The above listed is not any any particular order, is not guaranteed to be exhaustive, and may change without notice. Contents subject to settling during shipping. Objects in mirror are closer than they appear. Use as directed. Side affects include mild nausea, possible vommitting, and other hang-over like symptoms. Parental guidance suggested. Aidan does look like Phil.

Jazzy Posted - 03/01/2012 : 3:50:06 PM
The licensing points may be vaild and I appreciate a good rant now and then, but I'm surprised how people can get som emotional about business stuff. Why does he need to get all drama queen about it? On the other hand, a man has to do what he has to do and if quiting the MVP program does make him feel better I hope it brings him what he wants.

I don't agree with everything that company does, but I prefer to fight my battles from within. The MVP program gives access to MS and insight about how an organization works in a truly unique way. I wouldn't miss that and I can sleep very well knowing I'm an independent professional and not on the MS payroll.
wobble_wobble Posted - 03/01/2012 : 3:38:48 PM
Strangely enough I'm having learning more and more about licensing, both SPLA and VL.

Want a funny, ask a SPLA seller about DPM...

To be honest, its not that MS don't license VDA, they do not SPLA license the client W7, Vista or XP.
Why....not sure.
The statement about hosting someone's own licensed software on specific hardware only for that customer, they have been saying that for years. And honestly its probably not SPLA licenses on the hardware, unless the end user has VL with SA for the application.
If you want DaaS from a hoster/ cloud provider, you can get it, licensed correctly, by using Server 2K8R2 with Desktop experience enabled, and possibly the Citrix added desktop features.

Want complicated, try Red Hat Enterprise. You want to do what with what? oh, wait 5 days please. And free? No.

We have lost deals, because, when we priced the licensing correctly (per SAL or CPU) the customer went, what, you want how much? But in every instance, when further investigation occured, they found they were not correctly licensed to start.

With regard the coming across customers with incorrectly licensed software, $100 says it wasn't sold by you. I also bet that at the time, a reputable IT company did it legit. Can't speak for the dodgy ones or the dodgy customers.

Here's a question for you. In a shop, with a SQL DB, 5 accountants who run client server app against the SQL DB and 10 tills that feed into the DB. How many SQL user licenses needed?
Now add a delivery driver with a handheld device and another 5 drivers with paper delivery sheets.

Now ask the next app dev company you know.
JamesNT Posted - 03/01/2012 : 10:24:55 AM
Hey makes excellent points, I have to say.

I am running into more and more small businesses that are either failing or are just pirating the hell out of all their software. They simply can't afford all this expense.

JSCLMEDAVE Posted - 03/01/2012 : 10:19:46 AM
Originally posted by lacrosseboy

MVP for licensing? Makes sense and you too can make big bucks.

I suppose, if you do not mind admitting to people that you have no idea what you actually do for a living. <g>
lacrosseboy Posted - 03/01/2012 : 10:11:15 AM
MVP for licensing? Makes sense and you too can make big bucks.
netmarcos Posted - 03/01/2012 : 09:58:12 AM

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